Stringing Words - Discussion Forum: Short Stories

Short Stories - and what makes them stories
Subtle Kisses	#1 Posted on 03-06-2010 09:25
Veteran Member Posts: 753 Joined: 20.03.09	Hey Guys So I've gone through an iffy stage in terms of novels so I tried my hand at short stories. I've got about 4 or 5 pieces that are good enough to be rewritten/editing and eventually submitted, but I've stumbled across an issue - they're simply not stories. What they are, are scenes. Little moments, reflections, pieces of prose. And I don't know what to do about it. I've never been good at getting plot into anything shorter than 20 pages. So for these 'stories' I haven't - some don't even have characters or anything that could be seen as a plot. I don't know what to do. How do you guys actually plot and write short stories? I don't even know what I'm asking here really, I just want to open a discussion up about short stories. Help? "It's the Opheliac in me"


Elizabeth Twist	#2 Posted on 03-06-2010 20:34
Veteran Member Posts: 708 Joined: 15.04.09	I think eiie already talked about this issue in your personal thread, but because I write genre stuff, very often I come up with the plot / core concept first, and the character comes way later, if at all. So "stuff happening" is the centrepiece of the idea when I begin, often. That having been said, a lot of the stuff that happens in my stories is based on just raw conflict between people. I've got a background in drama, so A hits B, B hits back is just an ingrained structure in my mind, and it comes out in my plots a lot. There isn't a ton of room in a story for plot events. Like eiie said, pick one grandiose thing for your character to do, and that will be good. The guy I took writing classes with talked about beginning short stories at the point just before the event that ends the story, so you come in at a point of heightened tension, and you show how the characters complete the situation / resolve the conflict / blow up the evil empire (or whatever). So for these 'stories' I haven't - some don't even have characters or anything that could be seen as a plot. Is there still such a thing as a prose poem in the literary world? I understand that literary short fiction has a different set of rules than the stuff I tend to write, and being less plot-ful is totally acceptable in some circles. You might not have stories per se, but you might still have marketable short pieces. eiie would know more about this than me. http://elizabetht...ogspot.com


RedHead97	#3 Posted on 03-06-2010 23:35
Member Posts: 153 Joined: 22.04.09	I wrote a two-part series about structuring short stories on my blog: http://hillsandco...l/plotting When I write a short story, I have a plot but it's usually just a few days out of the MC's life, something that the MC always remembers. It has to be something important. Sometimes I can turn the idea into a novel, sometimes I can't. I usually come up with the plot before the characters, and I try to cut events in the story down to the bare minimum of what's necessary. My blog, Hills and Corkscrews: http://hillsandco...


eiie	#4 Posted on 04-06-2010 02:21
Veteran Member Posts: 864 Joined: 21.03.09	Elizabeth Twist wrote: Is there still such a thing as a prose poem in the literary world? I understand that literary short fiction has a different set of rules than the stuff I tend to write, and being less plot-ful is totally acceptable in some circles. You might not have stories per se, but you might still have marketable short pieces. eiie would know more about this than me. What I know is that it's crazy-nebulous. Anything under 1200 words (in some markets 2000 words and in others as few as 500 words) might fall under the term short-short fiction. Everyone SAYS it still has to have conflict and action BUT what I see published doesn't always have both of those things ... so crazy-nebulous. Rose Metal Press has a book about writing FLASH FICTION that everyone raves about from writers to teachers etc.[[The Rose Metal Press Field Guide to Writing Flash Fiction: Tips from Editors, Teachers, and Writers in the Field. Edited by Tara L. Masih I defer to them because I don't yet understand it well enough to talk about it ... oh I've talked about it before but back then I only thought I knew what I was talking about ... now I know I don't know ... and I know that most other people who are talking don't know either. I think a lot of people start with either action or conflict in their ideas and then get confused assuming that conflict is action or that action is conflict, and therefore they never add the other. This is like baking and assuming that brown sugar is white sugar and white sugar is brown sugar so you only need to add one or the other. Lovers' angst is conflict but not action. An olympic swim race is action but not conflict. You'll notice that the sports casters go out of their way to develop a narrative of conflict about the racers because there is no conflict in the race itself just the action of doing. So, the sports casters develop the conflict of the racer's childhood, or his injury, or his rivalry, or his near miss that he must triumph over ... these provide conflict, they are obstacles to the goal that the action overcomes. Which reminds me of the best and most basic short story lesson I ever learned. The short story, in its essence is three things: (1) A character's desire, (2) an obstacle between the character and his desire, (3) the character's action to over come obstacle. (whether he succeeds or not is up to the writer). Desire. Obstacle. Action. A good short story contains ONLY the prose that is in service of those three things. (This is also the lesson I had at my turning point from writing scenes to writing stories ... although I think my Monster Hunter story is more scenes than a story so I'm falling back in the trap)


Elizabeth Twist	#5 Posted on 04-06-2010 04:12
Veteran Member Posts: 708 Joined: 15.04.09	I only thought I knew what I was talking about ... now I know I don't know ... and I know that most other people who are talking don't know either LOL http://elizabetht...ogspot.com


Subtle Kisses	#6 Posted on 04-06-2010 10:47
Veteran Member Posts: 753 Joined: 20.03.09	Thanks for the advice guys - my main issue is still plot I think. I've spent so long thinking of grandiose plots for novels that I can't think small now. Any hints or tips for small-scaling plots that still have an impact? Also, what even counts as a short story in terms of word count? "It's the Opheliac in me"


eiie	#7 Posted on 04-06-2010 15:56
Veteran Member Posts: 864 Joined: 21.03.09	Novels are made up of lots of desire-conflict-action cycles; a short story is just one of those. You can make almost any interesting novel a short story if you are able to isolate one action cycle. Word count depends on your publisher. Harlequin publishes 15,000 word short stories. Literary magazines normally cap at 9,000 for the uppermost limit. Though 6,000 is much more reasonable in their eyes. 6k is also the upper limit for stories for us this summer at Camp so I figure there must be something to that. And as a lower limit, it's hard to get a full story in under 1200 words; they tend to turn into scenes unless you really work at it. 2000-6000 words is the sweet spot.


Elizabeth Twist	#8 Posted on 04-06-2010 16:04
Veteran Member Posts: 708 Joined: 15.04.09	You'll see technical definitions for short stories floating around out there (under 20k, under 12k), but for most markets, you want to aim under 6 or 7k, I think. I've had good luck with pieces that were in the 2-4k range. Some markets define anything under 1k-1500 as a flash piece. It varies. In terms of small-scaling plots, I would keep things limited to either 1) a few actions / events that you can describe briefly or 2) one or two actions that you want to spend detailed word count on. The key here is choosing which events / actions to show. RedHead's advice is good: ...something that the MC always remembers. It has to be something important. I try to cut events in the story down to the bare minimum of what's necessary. So you're focussing on a climax, basically. Give your reader the info she needs to understand why the events / actions are important, and show how things play out. http://elizabetht...ogspot.com


chrisk	#9 Posted on 05-06-2010 01:45
Admin Posts: 1079 Joined: 20.03.09	eiie wrote: I think a lot of people start with either action or conflict in their ideas and then get confused assuming that conflict is action or that action is conflict, and therefore they never add the other. This is like baking and assuming that brown sugar is white sugar and white sugar is brown sugar so you only need to add one or the other. This strikes me as a funny metaphor, because though an experienced baker knows that white sugar and brown sugar are different from each other and can't be blindly substituted - I've never really used a recipe that calls for both - in fact, I've never really used brown sugar much except to put it in my oatmeal porridge. Not sure what that example would say for your point, though. I've been following this thread for a while, trying to find the time to figure out what to say, and a lot of what I've been thinking about has already been said. One helpful thing might be to think of the beginning, middle, and end of the story when you're initially getting the idea. I do think that having those 3 parts fairly clear and easy to identify is part of what makes a short story a story. I'm not that used to writing in the 'short' range myself, but I did make an effort to write some short genre pieces back in February, and got 3 stories all in the 5-6 thousand word range, all of which I like. And to illustrate my point, I'm going to break them each down in terms of the beginning-middle-end of their plot synopses: EEC Survey (Science fiction action/drama, 6000 words.) Beginning: Kevin, the wildlife scout for a survey team exploring an unsettled planet, returns to base camp after a successful mission of trapping live specimens for his wife Janine, the team xenobiologist, to study. He catches up with news of his friends at the base camp bonfire, and he and Janine turn in for the evening. (2500 words) Middle: At midnight, a huge flying lizard attacks the base camp building, trying to batter its way inside and mauling one of the team members who tries to force it away by shooting with a rifle. Kevin thinks that it might be trying to free a smaller lizard that he caught and caged, but none of the others believe him (1750 words) End: Janine tells Kevin she trusts his judgement, and distracts the big lizard, hiding underwater off the beach once she's attracted its attention. Kevin runs into the bio lab, finds the little lizard's cage in the dark, and has to remember the combination code to open it. The two lizards, big and small, fly off together, and the team doctor gives Janine CPR to keep her from drowning. Once everybody's been taken care of, Janine and Kevin talk about what the relationship could have been between the lizards, and Janine tells him that she doesn't want to keep the animals that she studies in cages any more if there's another way to learn about them. (1750 words) The case of the Wizard's vice (Fantasy mystery, 5000 words.) Beginning: The Inspector is summoned to Glimmerwing academy by Headmaster Miranda Dixon, who has a tough mystery on her hands - a student was cursed, he's in a coma, and if the curse isn't lifted soon he'll die. The scene of the crime is a residence suite, and it was sealed after the curse went off, meaning that only the five suspects found at the scene could have cast the curse. The local Wizard's Prosecutor wants to put all the suspects to the Vice of Truth, which would unmask the guilty party so that he could be forced to remove the curse, but it has horrible long-term side effects for anybody put to the Vice - even innocent suspects. (1100 words) Middle: The Inspector questions each of the five suspects - the victim's best friend, someone who he used to be friends with before they had a fight over a girl, the victim's leading rival, the victim's girlfriend, and the best friend's girlfriend, (who happens to also be the victim's ex-girlfriend.) He asks them each about the others, about the party that they were all at the night before the attack, and about the class where they're learning to cast curses. (2650 words) End: The Inspector presents his case, hinging on the fact that only one suspect had a motive so strong that it was worth the possibility of being put to the Vice and found out that way. The Headmaster agrees, and has a Compulsion put on that suspect, forcing his hands to undo the curse - and the suspect carries on as if he's truly innocent and his hands are about to tear themselves apart, forced to do the impossible, until the Compulsion works and the victim is saved, and wakes up surrounded by his friends and his family. (1250 words) Samantha and the wolves (Fantasy adventure, 5500 words) Beginning: On her way to the nearby independent territory of Montana/Wyoming to meet with a moderate faction there, Princess Samantha finds out that her life has been threatened by the Wolves - the hardliner conservative faction founded by and named after Montana-Wyoming's talking wolves. Trying to give the Wolves the slip, she leaves her entourage in a local car, accompanied only by her suitor, Thomas, and one bodyguard/chauffeur. (1850 words) Middle: The car is flipped when it gets near a small land mine in the road, and all three of them are trapped, with the bodyguard badly wounded and unconscious. Samantha and Tom talk about what's happened, try to find a way to free themselves either with the magic they know or more conventional means. Every minute could be critical, not just because of the bodyguard's medical condition, but because they were driving through Wolf territory and might get discovered, nearly helpless in the car. (2100 words) End: As Samantha rhymes off a list of spells she knows, Tom points out a way that one of them might help that Sam hadn't thought of, and though it isn't easy, by trusting each other, they're able to get themselves and the bodyguard out of the car. As they leave the area, they run into two Wolves, (one an actual wolf and one a human girl,) but since Sam and Tom are both free and not outnumbered, the Wolves don't want to start trouble and point them to the nearest place the bodyguard can get medical help. (1550 words) Looking over that list, it seems clear to me that I'm packing quite a lot of plot into my 'short stories.' You may or may not want to try this yourself, but I think it's worked well for me so far.


eiie	#10 Posted on 05-06-2010 01:48
Veteran Member Posts: 864 Joined: 21.03.09	I've never really used a recipe that calls for both - If you follow the recipe on the Nestle Tollhouse chocolate chip bag for chocolate chip cookies, it calls for both -- I want to say a couple other cookie recipes do as well but I can't think of them off the top of my head.


Subtle Kisses	#11 Posted on 05-06-2010 10:25
Veteran Member Posts: 753 Joined: 20.03.09	My favourite cookie recipe does eiie Thank you for that break down of your stories Chris, it really helped me see the overall structure and stuff. "It's the Opheliac in me"


Subtle Kisses	#12 Posted on 05-06-2010 10:25
Veteran Member Posts: 753 Joined: 20.03.09	My favourite cookie recipe does eiie Thanks for the breakdown Chris, it really helped to see the structure and stuff I feel a little bit more confident about short stories... now I just need some plots... XD "It's the Opheliac in me"


chrisk	#13 Posted on 05-06-2010 12:00
Admin Posts: 1079 Joined: 20.03.09	I'm glad that you found that helpful. As an interesting contrast to those breakdowns, which were written after the stories and summarizing them, here's a notes file I just found from when I was brainstorming for short story ideas: Ideas for short stories: new Samantha Brussard adventure - something with Praychon Thomas in it, and an attack by rebels and some kind of cleverness needed to get out of a tight spot. Murder mystery at a wizard's school (definite Harry Potter influence.) under 5000 Exploration and Evaluation Corps - biologist captures a small winged lizard, and a dragon follows him to the EEC camp.


Elizabeth Twist	#14 Posted on 10-06-2010 18:02
Veteran Member Posts: 708 Joined: 15.04.09	Thanks for sharing your story summaries, word count breakdowns, and the ideas from your notes file, Chris! It's always interesting to get some insights into another writer's process. Looking at your beginning / middle / end summaries, I was a little surprised by how long your beginnings were. I never feel like I should spend any more than a couple of paragraphs doing setup in shorter pieces. I always want to throw the inciting incident right out there, in the first line, if I can manage it. I'm sure there are many payoffs to spending time establishing little things - you know, like setting and character. I'm working on a story where I cut a couple of pages of setup from the beginning because it was delaying getting to the main conflict. How do you resolve the issue of snagging the reader's attention, or is that a consideration? they run into two Wolves, (one an actual wolf and one a human girl,) The possibilities implied by this bit of summary are pretty intriguing! I like the idea of humans calling themselves / being wolves. I've got some person-to-dog shape shifting happening in a recent story, so I'm all into canine fun these days. I'm packing quite a lot of plot into my 'short stories.' I find I do this too. something with Praychon Thomas in it I totally read this as Thomas Pynchon. Guess it's time for me to read The Crying of Lot 49 again... http://elizabetht...ogspot.com


chrisk	#15 Posted on 12-06-2010 15:58
Admin Posts: 1079 Joined: 20.03.09	Elizabeth Twist wrote: 1. How do you resolve the issue of snagging the reader's attention, or is that a consideration? 2. The possibilities implied by this bit of summary are pretty intriguing! I like the idea of humans calling themselves / being wolves. I've got some person-to-dog shape shifting happening in a recent story, so I'm all into canine fun these days. 1) I'm still having some issues with this. Actually, in the Wizard's Vice, I think I managed pretty well. You don't have to handle all of the beginning in one line to 'snag the reader's attention' - you just need to start off with something that gives them some of what they're looking for. In Wizard's Vice, it immediately starts with the Inspector showing up, and talking with the school Headmaster about wizardry and magical assaults, which I think is enough of a hook to hold a reader as the basic facts of the case get outlined. For 'Exploration and Evaluation survey', the first few lines involve the main character taking off in an aircar and radioing back to home base - which I think is a fairly decent snag, especially because of this exchange that I just love: "Falcon one to base camp, falcon one to base camp, come in base camp." There was a pause. "Kevin, you're not falcon one, you're not even a falcon at all. Your designation is Hummingbird three, get used to it." He sighed before pushing the button again. "Okay, Hummingbird three to base camp?" "Well, this is base camp - what's your report, Hummingbird three?" I think I may need to tweak the opening of Sami and the wolves to make it more snaggy - maybe play with the conceit of the story being a letter to her little sister, so I can foreshadow the danger before it actually gets explained in detail. 2. Yeah, I do like the idea of the people who are Wolves - it's an ideological thing rather than mystical. Actual talking wolves founded what became a political party, and it was still called the Brotherhood of the wolf even after they let people and Saurians and anyone else join in who believes in their platform. That's connected to an example of fun coincidences in writing. I originally planned for that story to happen further east, but I did want to have talking wolves, so I decided to look online and see where there were significant wolf populations in the United States today, (and in our universe.) And the results came in - Montana, Idaho, Wyoming. And in 'The Long Way Home', I'd included an offhand reference to Montana-Wyoming being an independent territory that rebelled against the kingdom. So I was able to work the wolves into that, and it eventually turned into an almost Palestinian metaphor - three different political factions in Montana-Wyoming, the Wolves who hate and distrust everybody else, the sympathetic camp who are willing to talk about peace, and the middle-of-the-road guys who are in charge and don't want to lean too far in either direction. Praychon Thomas was another element from 'Long Way Home' that I really did want to flesh out more - since Naveli's big sister was old enough that she'd be of a marriageable age, I wanted to show her with a suitor and explore what the royal courting process might be like with a Matriarchal royalty, and with an uneasy balance between strict traditions and giving the Princess the opportunity to make her own choices. "Praychon" is a word I made up for Tom's rank in some sort of a wizard's school.

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